* robfrankel   Yes, there IS a Free Clinic today, Monday, February 8, 2010. It will begin at the top of the hour!
* robfrankel   At that time, I'll be back to help out anyone who drops by with their business and branding issues, at no charge -- just like every Monday since 1998!
* greggshort   Morning Rob!
* robfrankel   So hang back, grab a cup of brew and get ready to rock at the first and only regularly publicly archived Frankel's Free Clinic -- at the top of the hour!
* robfrankel   Hey Gregg....back in just a bit.
* robfrankel   AAAAAALLLLRIGHTY then, the Clinic is now open!
Hi Gregg, Eydryan!
How are you guys doing? What's the first order of business today?
* patrysha   Good morning :-)
* robfrankel   Hi Patrysha!
* greggshort   Rob, Recently got your frankeltip pdf on self publishing. I've got a few questions about some of the details.. How do you handle/ market to the book trade.
* robfrankel   Gregg, one reason why I self-publsihed was to completely avoid the book trade. After dealing with publishers and distributors, I found that each and every one of them was nothing more than an order-taker.
* robfrankel   The whole point of self-publishing is to promote your books yourself to the end users, and possibly, some influencers like reviewers.
* greggshort   To put it another way, how do you sell to bookstores...what discount schedule do you use
* robfrankel   The ONLY time I sell to bookstores is by special order. They call me by looking up the ISBN number. Then they order the book.
* robfrankel   Forget about getting your book on their shelves. They won't take it, because they know it's self-published, which means they'll have trouble returning books that don't sell, etc.
* robfrankel   As for the discount schedule, I offer my $36.95 retail book to them for $28. The more they buy, the lower the wholesale price.
* robfrankel   Also, make sure that if a book store DOES special order your book, they buy it with a credit card. Don't get sucked into letting them send you a purchase order. It will take you months to get your money.
* robfrankel   BTW, I also offer bulk pricing, but book stores never order that many.
Curiously, I've had clients order 40 books for people in their companies.
* greggshort   So you only offer them a 25% discount and cash terms..plus a discount schedule
* robfrankel   Pretty much.
If you self-publish, you'll find that nobody is going to buy your book in bulk for purposes of re-selling. Stores are going to order single copies because a customer has asked for it.
* robfrankel   Even Amazon's Advantage program takes a very low quantity to keep on hand, selling most self-published stuff on consignment.
* greggshort   Have you done anything other than register the ISBN to try and market to the bookstores, or is that about it.
* robfrankel   That having been said, I've sold thousand of books thru Amazon. My goal is to sell as much as I can through my http://www.revengeofbrandx.com site, though, because the revenue is way higher and I get to see who ordered the book.
* greggshort   Did you also do anything with B&N?
* robfrankel   B&N was very unfriendly to self-publishing last I checked. So the only sales I have through them are special orders.
* robfrankel   Yes, I did test some book promoters who added the book to their catalog. All I got from it was a very small contract from a Russian publisher who wanted to translate the first edition.
* robfrankel   The biggest part of self publishing is the SELF part. It's not really hard to get the book reviewed by second and third tier sites. I also promoted the book to various trade publications -- in ADVERTISING and MARKETING trades.
* robfrankel   BRANDWEEK actually paid a fair sum for a one chapter excerpt and plugged the book.
* greggshort   Based on some of what I've researched online, B&N may be thawing...
* jonedm8   Hi everyone. Rob. do you have expereince with selling foreign rights?
* greggshort   Right, so find the niche and market straight to them...
* robfrankel   Jonedm*, I have very little in foreign rights. As I mentioned, we did a tiny little deal with a Russian firm to translate the first edition of The Revenge of Brand X
* greggshort   What's your thought on ebook/ kindle/ etc?
* robfrankel   Exactly, Gregg.
Everything else is just a red herring that pretty much wastes your time.
* robfrankel   Gregg, I'm of a different breed than most people embracing the Kindle and e-books:
I do not publish electronically, for a couple of reasons:
* robfrankel   First, the margins are way lower. And from what I've seen, if there's no real promotion behind the title, there's no increase in sales, which means revenue can actually drop.
* robfrankel   Second, and maybe most important, is that a good old fashioned tree killing book can't be hidden on a computer or Kindle. It's out there, where people can see it. If you've ever seen a copy of ROBX, you can drop it on ANY side and still see "Rob Frankel" and "branding".
* robfrankel   Simply leaving the book out on a coffee table, or in the hands of the guy next to you on the plane is more advertising for the book which cannot happen in Kindle land.
* greggshort   Ha..now if I could only find my copy laying around somewhere... :-)
* eydryan   You can do that Rob, via Facebook and stuff like that, but people have to actively want to promote your book.
* robfrankel   For e-books, that's different. Which is why I sell them at the FrankelBiz store.
* eydryan   But I guess that works for normal books as well.
* robfrankel   Eydryan, we launched the first edition of Revenge of Brand X with an affiliate program. Nobody produced.
* robfrankel   If anyone wants to promote my book through Facebook, they can always do so via Amazon's affiliate program....
* eydryan   I don't mean affiliate. I mean people looking at the book because other people recommend it on facebook. but there's a long way until that becomes usual for most people
* eydryan   i'm thinking along the lines of a virtual coffee table
* eydryan   word of mouth is powerful, even through social networks
* eydryan   but it's weak as a channel right now, few people really use it i guess
* robfrankel   Eydryan, word of mouth can drive people to the book's site. If people are looking for a way to make money off my book, I'm open. But NOBODY is going to break their butts for a few bucks per sale. Not worth their effort.
* eydryan   i mean facebook and stuff like weRead
* greggshort   Thought on Amazon promotion. Amazon will help support the book if they see sales on it...right...so I am considering using an in-house list of interested buyers to buy through Amazon and offer a discount or bonus if they purchase and write a review..thoughts?
* eydryan   I'm thinking less of the actual promotion and more of the lifestyle change
* robfrankel   Believe me, I wasted a lot of years waiting for other people to help me do stuff. It never worked. If you want to self publish - or be in any business for yourself -- you'll find that you have to do all the heavy lifting by yourself.
* eydryan   how about stuff like kickstarter? http://www.kickstarter.com/
* robfrankel   Gregg, Revenge of Brand X stayed in the top 1/10th percent of their sales for the first 12 months it was published. It was really up there. I never heard squat from Amazon nor did they respond to my inquiries....
* robfrankel   Stuff like http://www.kickstarter.com/ is pretty much a ruse. Even if you get money, you'll find that money is rarely the real problem. The real problem is deploying tactics. Everyone thinks that writing a check will solve problems, but it doesn't.
* greggshort   Well, by support I mean that they show more popular books higher in the search ranks, consider adding this book, etc.
* webs   Good morning!
* robfrankel   Gregg, at the end of the day, you want sales. Unless you can see there from here, it's largely a waste of time.
Keep your eye on the ball. It's about sales.
* eydryan   Good evening :)
* robfrankel   Gregg, one thing to keep in mind is that Amazon is really nothing more than a search engine. People who want more knowledge on a topic search for books on that topic.
* robfrankel   Now, one part that DOES help out is customer reviews. They helped me out quite a bit because they do help legitimize the book.
* greggshort   Speaking of SE, did/do you do any Adwords, etc to drive traffic for the book?
* robfrankel   But the truth is that if you're going to self-publish, your best bet is narrowly-focused rifle shots at your target audience.
* robfrankel   No, Gregg, no adwords or anything.
I relied purely on brand strategy and narrow-targeting.
* greggshort   and PR
* robfrankel   Fact is, while the site was indepently hosted, it really didn't get that much traffic. Eventually I found that sales were better when I folded RevengeofBrandX.com into RobFrankel.com as a subdomain, because the sales trail went like this:
Branding Expert --. His book.
* robfrankel   To this day -- and if you've been to these chats you know -- I use the book as a low end entry point into my consulting services. People who want to get knowledge at a low intro price buy my book.
* robfrankel   So more people search "branding expert" and land on my site. And that's where many of them find out about the book.
* robfrankel   Gregg, I did my own PR -- as I still do today.
* jonedm8   Just curious, how long has ROBX been out and how many copies have you sold?
* robfrankel   JonedM8, ROBX first was published in 2000. The second expanded/updated edition came out in 2009. Without getting too specific, I believe we've sold copies in the tens of thousands.
* robfrankel   And I'm REALLY proud that we've never had ONE return. Or even a complaint. A lot of thank you notes, though. And that's pretty neat.
* jonedm8   Wow. Nice numbers. Must be gratifying.
* robfrankel   Jonedm8, it really has been a great experience. Very validating. Nice to know you can help people out AND make a few bucks.
* greggshort   Roughtly what % did you have come over your own site vs. Amazon or other sellers?
* robfrankel   (Anyone want to change the subject? We can, ya know. THis hour is for you guys)
* patrysha   I'm just gearing up for a heavy day of cleaning so mind isn't focused on business...lol
* eydryan   Don't really have anything to ask this week, I'm here to see you guys interact.
* robfrankel   Gregg, for most of the time, I think Amazon was selling 2 copies for every 1 copy selling through my site. That's actually a good thing, because I've concluded that the people buying through Amazon have never heard of me. That means bringing new prospects into the fold.
* robfrankel   These days, you can leverage Twitter and Facebook for book sales, along with review sites and stuff.
* greggshort   Yea, I can see how that's a great front-end for you.
* greggshort   Any review sites worth mentioning by name?
* robfrankel   Gregg, when you're self publishing, the trick is to stay focused on the quickest route to sales. Don't get distracted by "promises" and "potential" deals. They never produce.
* robfrankel   You have to choose your review sites based on the field you're in. I'd sooner get reviewed by a site in the sector I was writing about than a "book review" or "publishing" site.
* robfrankel   So you have to look at your book's sector to figure out who would review it.
* greggshort   That makes sense
* robfrankel   Anyone else have an issue? If not, we can keep going....
* jonedm8   Any comments on the Super Bowl ads last night?
* greggshort   Did you do anything to market to libraries or colleges?
* eydryan   I imagined a question, I have a friend who'd making these interfaith necklaces on interfaithing.com
* eydryan   any ideas about it?
* robfrankel   Gregg, nope. Any colleges, libraries or universities -- and branding agencies -- have all ordered the book because they wanted it.
* robfrankel   That's different, Eydryan. Not sure what Kind of a market there is for that kind of thing.
* eydryan   well there is a market it's just that it's not huge
* robfrankel   It's funny about interfaith, because the older you get, the less attractive the concept.
* greggshort   Re: Super Bowl...was there ANY real branding going on?
* robfrankel   So it's likely to sell well to really young people, but not older types.
* robfrankel   Superbowl is a huge waste of time and money, UNLESS you're launching a new mass market brand.
* eydryan   the concept is interesting in some things but i guess you'd have to be dedicated to actually get a necklace for it
* robfrankel   ...and it was really, really sad to watch The Who. Depressing, really.
* robfrankel   Yeah, Eydryan, that's the truth:
You have to REALLY be an evangelist to want to wear ANY kind of religious symbol.
* patrysha2   what is interfaith? I think I'm the only person I know who didn't watch..I was working, not really a football fan
* jonedm8   Greg, good question. Not sure. Seems like everyone was trying to be cute this year.
* greggshort   Who was that? :-)
* robfrankel   I deliberately don't watch Superbowl or Oscars or award shows.
They're just totally meaningless and a waste of time, IMHO. More manipulation of the masses.
* robfrankel   EIGHT MINUTE WARNING (Still plenty of time)
* greggshort   I'm running my head over the ads, and other than the Dove Men's stuff, nothing comes to mind.
* eydryan   interfaith is basically an idea of "we're all religious, let's celebrrate that regardless of our individual religion"
* robfrankel   Eydryan, all that interfaith goes out the window when your daughter brings home someone from OUTSIDE the faith. :D
* patrysha2   I don't have a philisophical objection to any of those, and I do watch my hockey...but everything else is just irrelevant to my life
* patrysha2   Only for while rob ;-) My in laws got used to me...mind you that was more racial than religion...
* eydryan   well it's not really a faith, i've actually been to one of their things and it's just friendly people
* robfrankel   I know SO many people who were major league liberals UNTIL the "wrong" people moved into their neighborhoods or their kid was "seriously involved/engaged" to someone outside their faith.
* robfrankel   I always laugh at young parents who say "Well, whoever makes my kid happy, that's really the only important thing..." And then, years later, they disown the kid for doing exactly what they were told!
* patrysha2   I guess that might be true where the parents are really into their faith. None of ours were...
* patrysha2   I went to a Hindu temple a few times, more often to the Sikh temple for neighbours and such and my first time in a Catholic church was when I was 18...with my not yet mother in law
* robfrankel   Patrysha: Race, religion, occupation -- people always resist that with which they're unfamiliar.
* robfrankel   TWO MINUTES
- titus   wow - we got awful deep there for a moment...
* patrysha2   lol...is it deep or just life?
* robfrankel   Titus, we're pretty thoughtful people here!
* greggshort   Rob...Thanks a bunch for your thoughts and info on book publishing!
- titus   deep life.
* robfrankel   Okay, everyone, that was a hugely productive session on self-publishing and stuff. I'm sure it will be well read in the archives.
- titus   i can tell :) l8r
* robfrankel   I've got to run, but the room stays open for another 15 minutes if you'd like to schmooze.
* robfrankel   Have a great week....I'll see you online!
* eydryan   yeah, great talk, thanks for taking the time rob
* patrysha2   Being half East Indian in a small Canadian city was interesting...
* patrysha2   have a great week Rob!
* patrysha2   and everyone!
* greggshort   Likewise ...I'm out.
* eydryan   you yoo
* eydryan   you too