* allan1473   hi
* eydryan   hi :)
* allan1473   its just us for now
* allan1473   what is your business?
* robfrankel   Yes, there IS a Free Clinic today, Monday, March 1, 2010! It will begin at the top of the hour as designated by the clock in the upper right hand corner of your browser.
At that time, I'll be back here, hanging out for an hour to help anyone who drops by with their branding, business and other issues.
So grab a cup of coffee, a muffin and limber up your fingers for the web's longest-running, publicly archived business chat!
* allan1473   hi rob
* robfrankel   Actually, the date is Monday, August 16.... :D
* robfrankel   Sorry about that
* robfrankel   Hey Allan. Let me grab a cup of coffee and I'll be right back...
* allan1473   i've been waiting since march 1 :(
* robfrankel   Funny...I'm still decaffeinated. Give me a minute for the juice to hit.
* eydryan   lol
* eydryan   hate this bloody chat, when are you going to change it rob
* robfrankel   Eydryan, I'd change it except that it has features I can't find anywhere else. And I refuse to host a chat using Google applications.
* allan1473   it seems kind of slow and outdated ..funny thing is it similar to the type i use on one of my sites
* eydryan   oh just a simple
* robfrankel   Allan, the beauty of this chat tool is that it's not flash-based and it archives automatically, which is a big help to me.
* robfrankel   Also, because we own the code, there's no snooping or privacy issues that come with Google-type free apps.
* allan1473   yeah..thats a handy feature
* robfrankel   You'd be surprised at how few chat codes there are that can archive and make those archives searchable. Believe me, over the years we've looked for some.
* allan1473   google is evil imo...
* robfrankel   Truth is that the chat archives are the #1 trafficked part of the site.
* eydryan   oh come now it's not that hard to just copy and paste the chat afterwards
* eydryan   and well i see no reason why you would mind google archiving/snooping
* robfrankel   Of course Google is evil. The world is being lulled into an Orwellian hell and few people realize it because they're getting stuff for free.
* eydryan   the chat is indexed anyway
* allan1473   lol
* eydryan   well such is the price of technological advancement
* eydryan   one could argue that this damned globalization has made it too difficult to covertly kill someone as opposed to 200 years ago
* robfrankel   Eydryan, you are probably too young to have had your life messed up by a "mistake" from a third party -- that the third party never compensates you for.
* robfrankel   Our script also compiles keywords for search
* eydryan   what do you mean by that?
* robfrankel   Eydryan, the privacy issue isn't about bad guys hiding. It's about good guys whose lives get screwed up by idiots who don't do their jobs properly.
* eydryan   oh come now compiling keywords for seo is something people did in 1995, nowadays crawlers are smart enough to not need them
* eydryan   well what privacy rob?
* eydryan   this is an open conference, completely public
* eydryan   not arguing, just asking
* robfrankel   No Eydryan, I'm talking about searching from within the site itself. People search the archives to get to clinics like this one that discuss a certain topic.
* robfrankel   As far as privacy goes: If, for example, someone has the same name as you and the idiot at Google or the FBI is searching without doing due diligence, your data can get sucked into his investigation.
* eydryan   well we're going into paranoid stuff here
* robfrankel   One day, for example, you go to the store to learn your credit has vanished.
* eydryan   i for one actually have a doppelganger, a guy who has the same name and is also a photographer
* eydryan   as for identity theft don't worry it's very easy either way
* robfrankel   Dream on, young one....!!! That's exactly the lack of vigilance that lulls people into a false confidence.
* robfrankel   Eydryan, you'll find that when/if it happens, there is no prior warning. Nothing. One day, everything in the world is simply shut off to you.
* robfrankel   And the more ANY central database knows about you, the more likely it is to happen.
* robfrankel   You can get ambushed for life for some stranger's stupid mistake.
* allan1473   happened to me with Google about 5 years ago..they completely shut down my business..wasn't even for something i did
* robfrankel   Hey, I know that cloud computing is "relatively" secure and safe, but I won't invest my data there.
* eydryan   i mean i'm paranoid myself about this kind of stuff, trying to sever most ties between eydryan and my real persona but the truth is
* eydryan   you cannot have an online presence without losing some privacy
* eydryan   i'll be right back sorry
* robfrankel   Eydryan, what the younger generation hasn't grown up with is a sense of its own accountability. The infrastructure is breeding reliance into your generation by making everything seem okay.
* eydryan   oh i understand what you mean Rob and to a point agree with you but is it really worth obsessing over?
* allan1473   rob..how has business been lately..are things picking up in the US?
* eydryan   and the advantage of an Orwellian world where everything is monitored is that with total accountability comes zero accountability
* webs   Good morning!
* robfrankel   Never confuse vigilance with obsession.
* eydryan   morning
* allan1473   hi webs
* eydryan   well it's actually evening here
* robfrankel   In America, we're really into that. Personal liberty is a big issue here...
* eydryan   freedom is generally an illusion; if you want to be truly free you must be born and live all your life in a forest
* webs   Hi Allan
* robfrankel   Allan, thanks for asking. Strangely, in a recessive economy, my own business has been the best ever. What I find bizarre is that everyone complains about no jobs, and no recovery, yet everyone *seems" to have enough money to go out and stand in line to buy iPods and iPads.
* eydryan   otherwise there are paper trails and the possibility of someone messing with your identity and you have zero control over that
* webs   eydryan... that's bull shit!
* robfrankel   Eydryan, freedom is only an illusion until you lose it.
* eydryan   by the way, if anyone has a question for Rob, I'm just ranting, I'll shut up :D
* allan1473   lol
* eydryan   well you never lose it, you just have less than before
* robfrankel   No Eydryan, you have ALL KINDS of control over it. That's my point exactly.
* eydryan   yes but even in jail you have control over your freedom
* webs   There is a difference between freedom and visibility
* robfrankel   Eydryan, I'm guessing you have no memories of the Soviet era. Even where you live.
* eydryan   i've really forgot what I'm arguing about :D
* eydryan   the Soviet era wasn't such a bad thing really, there are a lot of people who truly embraced it
* robfrankel   Eydryan, you can't be serious about freedom in jail.
* eydryan   people found comfort in their lack of freedom
* robfrankel   The soviet era was awful! Does the name Stalin ring a bell?
* eydryan   i;m just saying there are levels of freedom
* webs   To be truly free, you must be able to make your own decisions and accept personal responsibility for your decisions, and not be forced or coerced to gve up your rights and property.
* allan1473   eydryan where ru from?
* eydryan   we're not talking about the madmen, we're talking about the common people during the Soviet era who lived their lives just like they do today. difference is back then you had money but nothing to spend them on but always had job security etc
* robfrankel   Eydryan, that's another of my points. Yes, Soviet citizens were miserable, having no choice but to live under a centralized state that was supposed to "take care of them." Of course it didn't and eventually collapsed -- without a single shot being fired.
* webs   The people who embraced the Soviet Era were the top bureaucrats
* eydryan   @webs imo true freedom cannot be achieved in a society
* eydryan   @allan Romania mate
* webs   Oh true freedom certainly can. The founders of this cuopntry were living (After the revolution) under freedom
* allan1473   nice..got friends and people i work with from there..i love the Romania talent pool
* robfrankel   Eydryan, if you really believe that "true freedom cannot be achieved in a society" then you've proven my point about being vigilant about what freedoms you DO have.
* eydryan   no no no low level citizens liked it too. sure there were bad things but there are bad things now as well. then you had lack of control now you have illusion of control. same thing really, but there was less stress back then
* eydryan   @Rob I said I partially agree with you :D
* webs   Then came a growing government infringing on personal freedoms of the people.
* robfrankel   Eydryan, there was less EVERYTHING back then. That's why it collapsed.
* eydryan   but my point is that it's not worth worrying that much over such improbable things
* eydryan   @allan yeah Romanians are pretty nice people. and smart too :D
* robfrankel   Eydryan, unfortunately, yours is the exact attitude that allows madmen to power. The masses get lulled into complacency.
* eydryan   @Rob the collapse came mostly, as did Hitler's empire, due to the Cult of Personality. That's why Ceausescu was shot.
* webs   Eyedryan, Yup... It sure was great then... why you didn't have to work. If you spoke out... even in the privacy of your home critising the bureaucrats, or police, or system... you got arrested... there wee shortages of all kinds of things... but who needed them anyway.
* eydryan   but the people didn't see it that way, revolution, wasn't made by the people, I've talked to enough of them to know that much
* eydryan   it aws all political
* robfrankel   Google, Microsoft, Apple and other information giants are the slumbering giants that aren't really sleeping at all.
* webs   Eyedryan, you better go back and research your history. Especially the NAZI era.
* allan1473   i'm canadian...btw rob..wasn't in the US that there was a recent madman in power..can u say Bush ;)
* robfrankel   Let me ask you this:
Who here has TURNED OFF the GPS service in their cell phones...and who didn't even realize you COULD turn it off?
* eydryan   @webs that's the legend of it. the truth is a lot less like 1984. i know people who did those "forbidden" things and no one picked on them. unless you wanted to rock the boat they just left you alone.
* robfrankel   Allan, Bush wasn't mad, he was stupid. Cheney was evil. :D
- pete   Good morning Rob: New question. As you may recall, I am a one-person business doing small business valuations and consulting on business sales and transition issues. These are services that are sold when the need is at hand. (you may recall the interest we had when we tried to do the How to Sell Your Business online a few years ago!)
My question is related to all the social media hype today. A friend of mine in a similar business has been "Tweeting" for almost a year - with no new business traceable back to that effort. I am on Linkedin for the "legitimacy factor" and some good business related topical exchanges within specific valuation and business sales groups. I really don't think the effort to pursue and maintain a Twitter, Facebook, MySpace, etc., etc., etc., is worth it. I would appreciate your comments.
* webs   I turned mine off the day I got the phone
* eydryan   in windows mobile phones you could. but why the hell would you want to?
* allan1473   lol
* eydryan   ah pete good a real question, let's stop our bickering :D
* robfrankel   Hi Pete. thanks for jumping in.
* webs   Eyedryan... few and far between
* eydryan   @webs GPS is normally turned off. otherwise you would have an immensely tiny battery life (around 4 hours max)
* robfrankel   Pete, of all the social media services, I personally have found Twitter to be the best, and you may, too. LinkedIn is really nothing more than a recruiter's paradise. I've never had anything other than pitches from members.
* allan1473   hi @pete twitter generates $3000+ worth of business for me per month..it is super powerful but highly misunderstood
* webs   Allan, what are you doing to generate that revenue?
* robfrankel   I have generated good business from Twitter, mainly because I divide my contributions into two parts:
1. I try to impart valuable insights on branding and my core competencies
2. I throw in a bit of personality by commenting on extraneous stuff to keep people interested
* allan1473   i use it to get clients and i use to help clients get clients
* eydryan   my opinion is that social media is highly dependent on your business
* robfrankel   I can accurately track both fees and book sales to Twitter. I get nothing from Facebook or LinkedIn EVEN WITH PAID ADS.
* eydryan   some businesses are easy to
* webs   Allan, so your posts are more like business advice?
* allan1473   social media can be used for any business..because all businesses rely on interacting with other businesses
* robfrankel   Pete, I find that the less understood and oblique your business is, the more helpful Twitter can be. I spend a lot of time, for example, explaining what branding is and is not.
* allan1473   check my twitter out at allap73 its mostly seo advice
* allan1473   allanp73 ...oops
* eydryan   @allan no i meant it like it's easier to use some services and it's more effective if your business/customer base is inside that networks' user base etc
* robfrankel   And these guys are right:
When you engage people in a topical subject, they add you to their lists and begin to retweet your comments, which is essentially a third party endorsement.
* allan1473   true..eydryan
* allan1473   btw Twitter will make Google obselete
* eydryan   now that's talking out your arse :))
* eydryan   what do you mean by that?
* allan1473   obsolete*
* webs   Allan, that's a stretch
* eydryan   and just look at twitter's userbase, it's tiny compared to google, maybe even insignificant
* allan1473   think of Twitter as a real time search where as Google is mainly content that is 5+ days old
* robfrankel   Google's not going ANYWHERE soon. They are bigger than anyone really knows, publicly knows, at least.
* webs   Twitter and Google serve two different purposes
* robfrankel   Twitter exceed Google because it puts PEOPLE together, not data.
* webs   Besides Google has Obama in thier back pocket. They get anything they want from this adminstration
* allan1473   i'm not saying Google will die but if ppl learn how Twitter can be used it will definitely cut into Google's business
* eydryan   yes twitter is a great communication tool but there's nothing it does that competes with any google product
* robfrankel   Anyway, Pete, you really have to pay attention to Twitter and use it to meet PEOPLE. Jump in to conversations. Learn how to use Twitter apps (I prefer TweetDeck) that allow you to filter what you're looking for.
* eydryan   twitter imo needs much better filters before it can become an effective tool
* webs   If I'm looking for reviews on a certain product, I will use a search engine. Not Twitter
- pete   Rob...I'm soaking up all of these good comments and appreciate them. Thanks, please continue. I have found Linkedin very helpful with groups discussions in the industry. So far, I have had no recruited or other solicitation problems.
* eydryan   that's my issue with it: information overload
* robfrankel   Eydryan, it's no secret that Google is trying to compete with Twitter. Products like Buzz and Wave were failed attempts.
* allan1473   actually Google and Twitter serve the same purpose ppl use both to find information...Twitter just happens to have more timely content but lacks organization to allow ppl to find it easily
* eydryan   wave was never a failed attempt. i did my dissertation on wave: if you look at its user base it's very loyal.
* robfrankel   Pete, I've gotten real business from Twitter -- not huge accounts, but enough -- to justify the efforts. I've also made some very good friends and business relationships, along with media contacts.
* eydryan   buzz was an interesting thing but they ignored it. i loved it because it told me what people in my city were talking about. it was awesome
* robfrankel   Um, Eydryan? Google is pulling the plug on Wave if you didn't hear.
* allan1473   i thought it was already pulled rob
* webs   If I am shopping for soething I will research pricing etc on a search engine rather than Twitter, and if I want indepth info on a subject I will research it on a search engine
* eydryan   well that's what happens when you read just headlines. wave isn't going anywhere. sure, it didn't reach its expectations but its features will be used in other google apps and so on. they're doing what they always wanted: turning gmail into more than it is.
* eydryan   @allan wave still goes on strong. it has a lot of pretty awesome features that make it extremely powerful for anything really. i used it to design an e-learning platform.
* robfrankel   Eydryan, that's just Google's spin on failure.
* webs   We are not retreating... we are advancing in reverse! :)
* allan1473   @webs i can show u cooler ways to find things on Twitter that will demonstrate my point..but what u r saying is true
* eydryan   oh come now Rob stop being so pessimistic. Gmail is always getting new stuff. you've seen the new update, they've designed a new UI element that on paper test awfully but in reality is awesome(the select button)
* robfrankel   Pete, what else can I answer about Twitter, other than adding Twitter.com itself doesn't offer much in the way of USING Twitter. The third party apps make it much more effective.
* eydryan   i love tweetdeck with saved searches for that. and i agree, you need a client
* robfrankel   GMail? Are you kidding? That's THE most privacy-invading app out there!
* allan1473   that was going to be my point rob
* robfrankel   Eydryan, you do realize that GMail scans the content of every single piece of mail you send, right?
* eydryan   oh Rob seriously you're being way too paranoid about gmail. did you know it's the ONLY email client that does not send out your IP address with your email?
* eydryan   and how has it invaded your privacy
* allan1473   referring to twitter..2 conversations happening here lol
* eydryan   so what if it does? what do you do that is so sensitive?
* allan1473   gmail reads ur emails and shows ads based on their content
* allan1473   seems like invasion to me
* eydryan   mister rob, you have emailed secret missile plans have you not? :))
* robfrankel   Eydryan, GMail scans the content of your e-mail in order to determine your and your recipient's interest so that it can place an ad in it. And that kind of data gathering is exactly the same as searching/scanning for any other kinds of information.
- pete   Rob...Thanks for asking, I don't know enough about Twitter details to even ask any better questions. Is there a book/paper/webinar about how to fully use Twitter for business? Can you suggest some third party apps. Got the Tweetdeck.
* robfrankel   Laugh it up, Eydryan -- while you still can!
* allan1473   pete want a free copy of my Twitter ebook?
* webs   He's in Romania the land of the free :)
* eydryan   your privacy isn't really worth that much. Well maybe yours MAY be Rob because you're quite famous but for most people these invasions have zero consequences
* allan1473   pete also use monitter.com..it doesn't require a download
* allan1473   i'm in canada
- pete   Allan: Sure. Rob, can I include my email address in this text?
* robfrankel   Eydryan, let me know when your credit card is suddenly shut down. Or when the FBI knocks on your door and confiscates your laptop. Believe me, far more people who live very low profile lives have had that happen than others.
* robfrankel   Pete, you can include anything here, as long as you know this is a publicly archived chat.
* allan1473   pete u can go to my site http://www.allanpollett.com (also books on link building and google wave there)
* robfrankel   Pete, Tweetdeck allows you some great valuable features, like time-delayed send of messages -- remember, Twitter is 24/7 and people on the other side of the planet may be sleeping while you're awake.
- pete   Thanks Allan, I will do that.
* eydryan   well i don't use a credit card because i don't need one. i use a debit card and i have notifications about every operation performed on it. and the contents of all my hard drives are encrypted with 20+ character passwords. so i doubt they can really do anything to me
* webs   As he says whistling past the graveyard
* robfrankel   Eydryan, denial is a very popular pastime.
* eydryan   did not know about that tweetdeck feature. sounds pretty awesome. then again i haven't used it in a while
* eydryan   so is paranoia Rob
* robfrankel   "Hey you guys, it's a *relocation camp*, where we'll get food and stuff until the war is over....."
* robfrankel   All aboard, Eydryan..... :D
* webs   Give Eyedryan another 20 years of experience. he'll come around.
- pete   How do you get people to receive your Tweets? Or is all that in your book Allan?
* eydryan   well Rob what makes you think you won't be my neighbout
* robfrankel   Because I protect my privacy and don't get lulled into a false sense of security, Eydryan. That's what!!!
* eydryan   or do you think twitter is less evil? :P
* robfrankel   Pete, TweetDeck and other apps log into Twitter for you. You use them to operate Twitter the same way you use a browser to navigate the web.
* allan1473   the book is a part 1 of 2..still haven't finished the second..but there's lots of info on my site about how to effectively use twitter
* webs   That's at http://www.allanpollett.com ?
* eydryan   oh let's drop this paranoia thing. you think i'm being foolish i think you're being obtuse about it. my final point is that there are really no tools to prevent what you're talking about.
* robfrankel   Pete, the most important thing about Twitter, IMHO, is to provide value, not to hear yourself spout. In fact, I met our young privacy-ignoring friend Eydryan here through Twitter!!
* allan1473   yes
* allan1473   see seo-articles section
* eydryan   no you didn't Rob :P
* robfrankel   Edyran, that's the point. One man's vigilance is another man's paranoia.
* eydryan   I heard about your free clinics from some site/book
* robfrankel   Eydryan, how do you recall our meeting?
* eydryan   but we did chat through twitter and I enjoy your tweets
* webs   SEO articles?
* eydryan   because back then I didn't use twitter
* allan1473   http://www.allanpollett.com/seo-articles.html
* allan1473   direct link
* eydryan   i used to enjoy twitter but there's just so much noise.. couldn't cut through it
* robfrankel   Okay, so the point is that relationships can grow and flourish using Twitter, usually on more valuable topics than you'll see on Facebook and more dynamically than you'll find on LinkedIn.
* eydryan   if there's one thing twitter is awesome for is talking to a lot of people in a very short amount of time
* webs   Found it ... Thanks
* robfrankel   Pete, remember to follow people on Twitter, too, as part of the exchange. You don't have to follow everyone who follows you, but stay engaged.
* eydryan   the character limit makes messages more to the point and more likely that they will be read
* allan1473   eydryan that's what u use lists for and monittering services..as well as hashtags..they all help to cut through the noise
* eydryan   pete i'd contradict Rob a bit here if I may, it's better to follow people who interest you rather than everything
* robfrankel   Eydryan is right about that. And I can say that I've found a lot of really SMART people on Twitter, whereas LinkedIN tend to be run of the mill types and Facebook mainly socially-deprived divorcees....
* eydryan   oh I know allan, saved searches, filtering through your feed and so on but it's too much of a hassle really
* eydryan   most of the time
* robfrankel   Eydryan, you're not contradiciting me there. I agree with you. You DON'T have to follow everyone, just the ones you find interesting.
* eydryan   i guess it's an acquired skill
* robfrankel   TEN MINUTE WARNING
* eydryan   search youtube for people who show you how they deal with lists of 10000+ followers, there's a lot to learn
* allan1473   i never had problems with it..i look mainly at feed type responses
* eydryan   oh and set up searches about you in tweetdeck stuff like "yourname" OR "your name" OR "name your"
* allan1473   i have 16000 followers
* eydryan   @allan my problem is most of my followers post at night so in the morning i have hundreds of posts or so
* robfrankel   I think my follow ratio is about 10 to 1. There was (maybe still is) a feeling that you should follow everyone who follows you (as a social thing) but I think that's going away now that people are using Twitter more seriously.
* eydryan   grats
* robfrankel   And I don't have lots of followers. I don't think i've broken the 2000 mark yet.
* eydryan   oh and a very sneaky trick with twitter: when someone follows you you can follow them back and then unfollow them, they won't realise it most of the time
* allan1473   i follow everyone that follows me..but don't have to..i do as a means of making a connection
* robfrankel   Pete, I also try to keep my "follow" list eclectic. Some are industry related, some are just funny. I avoid women with cats.
* allan1473   lol rob
* webs   You can sort that into lists anyway can't you. SO even though you are following someone, you don't necessarily see their posts. Or am I wonrg about that?
* eydryan   one thing i hate about twitter: smug bastards
* robfrankel   Finally, Pete, I have had some GREAT meet-ups with Twitter people from very far off lands. When they come to Los Angeles, they are dinner guests of mine and we have a wonderful time.
* eydryan   many young people with nothing to say hang out on twitter and it just contributes to the noise.
* robfrankel   And there's NO other way I would have met them otherwise.
* eydryan   hmm, anyone notice pete isn't here anymore :))
* allan1473   lol and we r still talking to him..creepy
* robfrankel   Eydryan, I never follow those types. People who post photos of their lunch. I'm constantly amazed at the different groups there are.
* webs   Google swallowed him :)
* eydryan   it says a bit about our attention to details :))
* robfrankel   Pete may still be here, but the server may have dropped him from the sidebar because it can do that if you haven't piped up for a bit.
* eydryan   I know what you mean Rob but what I meant is things like young somewhat talented people who mostly post garbage
* robfrankel   TWO MINUTES
* robfrankel   I'm with ya on that, Eydryan
* eydryan   YUP
* eydryan   as always Rob thanks for taking the time to chat with us, sorry I'm not here more often
* eydryan   and I hope my views don't annoy you too much :D
* robfrankel   Anyway, this was among the most politically charged clinic I've seen in a while. Good stuff.
* robfrankel   Always good to have you here Eydryan!
* allan1473   nice meeting everyone this week..feel to free to drop me an email (i'm old school) and we can connect
- pete   Thanks for everyone's input.
* eydryan   don't really care for politics myself :D
* webs   Take care all
* eydryan   aaaargh! it's pete's ghost!
* robfrankel   TOLD YOU PETE WAS STILL HERE!!
* eydryan   haha
* allan1473   lol
* robfrankel   Alrighty then, that should do it for another Monday! Thanks everyone for your insights. I've gotta run, but the room stays open for 15 more minutes. Archives should be up in a day or two! Have a great week. I'll see you online!
* eydryan   bye everyone! :)
* allan1473   bye